Present Notes:
On this episode of SLP Espresso Speak, Hallie chats with Jacquilyn Arias—pediatric SLP and co-founder of Habla Cadabra SLP—about how narrative language sampling (NLS) could make your assessments quicker, extra significant, and far more aligned with actual classroom calls for. Jacquilyn breaks down why NLS is a must have instrument for busy college SLPs, the way it works throughout languages and cultures, and which free sources (like MAIN, ENNI, and SLAM) she swears by. Plus, she shares how new-ish, goal measures like P.c Grammatical Utterances (PGU) may help you confidently distinguish between a language distinction and a dysfunction—no fancy software program required. Whether or not you’re model new to NLS or simply seeking to degree up your evals, this dialog will go away you feeling empowered, environment friendly, and able to strive it out.
This is what we discovered:
- NLS saves time and provides richer knowledge than conversational samples
- It’s aligned with tutorial requirements and reveals actual classroom impression
- Instruments like MAIN, ENNI, and SLAM are free, simple to make use of, and multilingual
- Nice for bilingual evals—helps inform distinction vs. dysfunction
- PGU is a fast, dependable measure—no particular software program wanted
- AI instruments make transcribing quicker and simpler than ever
- Even brief samples may give robust, goal-driving insights
- Begin small—confidence comes with making an attempt it out
RESOURCES
Be taught extra about Jacquilyn Arias:
Be taught extra about Hallie Sherman and SLP Elevate:
JOKE OF THE WEEK:
Q: What occurs when ice cream will get offended?
A: It has a meltdown.
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TRANSCRIPT
00:00:00 Hallie: Hey there, SLP. I’ve a fast query for you. What in case you might have only one guide in your shelf that really will get the challenges of working with center college and highschool college students? Effectively, it is right here. Effectively, truly, the preorder is right here, however, hey, I am so excited to let you recognize that my model new guide, The Secondary SLP Information, is out there for preorder. And if you preorder, you get an unique bonus that you just will not need to miss.
00:00:31 Hallie: It’s full of actual speak methods, fast suggestions, and inspiration that you should utilize along with your center college and highschool college students all 12 months lengthy. That is the proper guide for a guide membership, a grad pupil group, or simply flipping by means of if you’re caught and in a IEP writing spiral. So head to speechtimefun.com/preorder or head to my Instagram and ship me a DM with the phrase preorder, and I’ll ship you the hyperlink so you possibly can preorder now. And I can not wait so that you can get your fingers on this guide in November, however the sooner you seize it, the higher the bonus.
00:01:17 Hallie: Welcome to SLP Espresso Speak, the podcast designed solely for speech language pathologists who work with older college students, grades 4 by means of 12. I’m your host, Hallie Sherman, your SLP behind Speech Time Enjoyable, the Speech Retreat Convention, and the SLP Elevate membership. And I am thrilled to deliver you conversations, methods, and insights that offers you the jolt of inspiration that you just want. Whether or not you are tuning in throughout your morning commute, on a break in between periods, and even throughout a effectively deserved rest time, I’m right here for you each week. Let’s do that SLPs.
00:01:57 Hallie: Hey. Hey. And welcome to a different episode of SLP Espresso Speak. Do you need to be taught extra about narrative language sampling? In that case, you are going to love my visitor that I’ve right here at the moment, Jacquilyn Arias. Did I simply say – okay. Welcome to the present.
00:02:16 Jacquilyn: Thanks a lot. It is actually… it is a pleasure to be right here.
00:02:19 Hallie: Inform everybody listening a bit bit about you and your SLP journey to what you’re doing at the moment.
00:02:24 Jacquilyn: Yeah. So I am a pediatric speech language pathologist. I’ve been within the area 13 years now. And once I first bought out, I began working at a pediatric rehab heart the place 90% of the inhabitants have been Spanish talking, which was actually thrilling. It is the place I met my accomplice at Habla Cadabra SLP, which is Pilar. And over time, I’ve switched settings fairly a bit. I labored at a personal college for youngsters with studying and language problems for fairly a while. Additionally they had an connected clinic the place we specialised in apraxia of speech. I labored at a bilingual language improvement analysis lab for a couple of years. That was actually enjoyable.
00:03:04 Jacquilyn: Within the final couple of years, I’ve simply been doing a whole lot of contract work, both within the public college setting and dealing with personal shoppers as effectively. So a bit little bit of everywhere, however I believe the large by means of line is that I actually love working with younger youngsters as elementary age, preschoolers. These are my jam. I even have my enterprise, Habla Cadabra SLP with Pilar, as I discussed, and I imagine that is how we met, is thru that.
00:03:29 Hallie: Precisely. We met at TSHA this 12 months, so it was so good to satisfy you in individual. So at the moment, let me speak all about narrative language sampling and the way we are able to put it to use to make nice medical choices. What’s it… in case now we have a whole lot of new grads that graduated or somebody shouldn’t be acquainted? What’s it precisely?
00:03:46 Jacquilyn: Alright. So we sort of know what language pattern evaluation is or taking a language pattern. Proper? And so each time we’re doing an evaluation, we do not need to solely depend on only a standardized check. We’re actually taking a look at a holistic view of how this little one is speaking. So we do language samples the place we simply sort of write down all the pieces that the kid is saying so we are able to sort of look and see, okay, effectively, how are they formulating sentences? What’s their grammar like? What’s their vocabulary like? The place narrative language sampling is if you’re doing it with a narrative. And so that you’re both doing a narrative retell otherwise you’re asking them to inform their very own story.
00:04:21 Hallie: Wow. And the way is it completely different than… what are some issues you possibly can achieve otherwise than only a common language pattern?
00:04:28 Jacquilyn: Effectively, so I’m actually within the analysis behind narrative language pattern evaluation. As soon as anyone jokingly mentioned, are you some form of, like, SALT consultant? As a result of I take advantage of SALT so usually to research my language samples. However I believe one of many issues that it may be actually exhausting for all of us is how time consuming and the way giant our caseloads are. And once we’re making an attempt to go and do evaluations, we do not have a whole lot of time. So… proper? So, you recognize, if you do a language pattern, it does take time. Proper? As a result of it’s a must to take the time to gather a sure variety of utterances. 50 is usually what’s accepted proper now. It is taking at the least 50 utterances from a baby. It’s important to file it, hearken to it, write it down, after which analyze it. So that may be actually time consuming. In the event you’re working with a bilingual pupil, typically you are doing that twice since you’re doing it in English after which additionally their dwelling language.
00:05:23 Jacquilyn: So the place narrative language sampling is available in and one thing that I actually, actually love about it’s that it makes it quicker. And the analysis has proven this too is when you’ve gotten one thing that turns into a bit bit extra standardized, a bit bit extra structured, then you are able to do it extra rapidly, extra effectively. I am positive you’ve got been with a child earlier than the place you say, okay. Like, effectively, you recognize, inform me a few film that you have seen not too long ago. And I am like, I do not know. I have never seen any motion pictures. Or, you recognize, typically it is like pulling tooth to get, you recognize, the dialog on the market. And it will take you fifteen minutes to gather the dialog or to gather one thing like that. Whereas if you do a story language pattern, you place a guide. You are able to do it the place, okay, I’ll offer you a mannequin the place going to I’ll inform you a narrative. After the story is over, you are going to return and you are going to inform me that very same story. It’s extremely clear what the expectation is. You have got visuals to go together with it.
00:06:12 Jacquilyn: After which additionally with narrative language samples, you are inclined to get so much deeper languages. So the kind of language you employ if you’re telling a narrative is so much richer. The sentences are often extra complicated than what you’ll get in dialog. So we get a greater concept of how the kid can truly set up and put language collectively. And telling a story that is actually tightly aligned with curriculum requirements that now we have, not solely the federal ones, however then additionally right here within the state of Texas, these as effectively. So we’re taking a look at how a baby is ready to inform a narrative, how they’re capable of put collectively sentences.
00:06:46 Jacquilyn: And what I’m actually obsessed with too is taking a look at syntax as a result of a whole lot of instances as our youngsters go to 3rd and fourth grade, the place they actually are inclined to wrestle if they’ve language problems or math and science and with the ability to perceive these phrase issues and story comprehension. And also you see a whole lot of that throughout the narrative language and if you’re taking a look at their sentence varieties, which you are not going to essentially see in a dialog.
00:07:08 Hallie: I really like that. Particularly within the college, we have to present how their language is impacting them academically. As an alternative of our dialog, utilizing literature, literacy-based exercise, you possibly can sort of knock out two issues directly.
00:07:25 Jacquilyn: Sure. And that is what we’re all about, proper, is effectivity.
00:07:29 Hallie: And we additionally disclose, like, we have to do extra than simply these standardized exams. You already know, pointing it into X’s and O’s shouldn’t be supplying you with sufficient info on how that pupil is doing within the classroom and the way they’re performing in on a regular basis life. So having extra knowledge, extra info, the higher medical choice you may make, particularly with objectives. I’d suppose a language pattern goes to present you a lot extra info on… for purpose writing than these standardized exams.
00:07:53 Jacquilyn: Oh, for positive. After which, you recognize, you are doing a job that they are truly going to be doing within the classroom. A few of these issues that you’d do on a standardized – you are by no means going to do this once more. So it is actually only a very holistic view of, like, okay, what is that this little one actually trying like? And once I can speak to lecturers about, oh, once we did this story retell, that is – then, you recognize, they’re all the time nodding their heads of, like, yeah. Yeah. We’re, you recognize, we’re engaged on a few of these issues too. So it actually helps with that collaboration between the classroom after which what is going on on within the speech remedy room as a result of they acknowledge that significance as effectively, and, you recognize, we’re supporting what they’re making an attempt to work on within the classroom.
00:08:27 Hallie: Love that. Do you’ve gotten favourite and I… instrument – however everybody’s most likely questioning, like, so what do you having them learn, or what do you’ve gotten you having them inform about? What do you want to make use of?
00:08:38 Jacquilyn: Yeah. I imply, it sort of will depend on, like… if I am doing it for a proper evaluation or if I am simply sort of doing it as a screener. I do suppose that there is a whole lot of worth in making an attempt to make use of the identical issues time and again as a result of, once more, I need it to be quick for me and environment friendly for me once I’m transcribing and analyzing. And I additionally need to ensure that if I am selecting a random story that it has all the weather of a story in order that we’re getting good info.
00:09:06 Jacquilyn: So, on my weblog that now we have on our web site, I’ve listed among the free sources that now we have. So a pair that I actually like is the Edmonton Narrative Norms Instrument or the ENNI for brief. This comes from the College of Alberta. It is free. It has completely different units of tales. And what I additionally actually like about it’s that it has completely different scoring sheets so you possibly can take a look at these by each macro constructions, so taking a look at these story components, you recognize, if there is a setting, if there is a character, how effectively they’re capable of reference the character, their inner frame of mind; after which it additionally has some for syntax as effectively. And it is a fast scoring sheet which you could sort of go down, after which you’ve gotten goal measures which you could apply and present in your assessments as effectively. In order that’s a favourite.
00:09:53 Jacquilyn: MAIN, which is the Multilingual Evaluation Instrument for our Narratives. I hope I am getting that one proper. That one is… it is a global one. So it was developed not within the US, nevertheless it’s been used so much in analysis. And, effectively, that one specifically is out there in a number of completely different languages. After which SLAM is one which I believe – proper?
00:10:13 Hallie: I am actually accustomed to the SLAM ones. Yeah.
00:10:15 Jacquilyn: Yeah. That we’re actually accustomed to. I like these as a result of they’ve them on the Increase playing cards so I can simply maintain it on my iPad. These have scoring measures. And I am speaking about scoring measures as a result of I do suppose it is actually necessary that we’re capable of apply some goal measures in order that we are able to actually sort of show progress once we’re working with youngsters or sort of actually be capable to rapidly establish. Numerous instances once I’m within the colleges, I sort of are selecting up youngsters that anyone else has had on their caseload. So if I open up their eval and, I do not understand how it’s the place you’re employed, however our emails are typically, like, 45 pages. And if it is simply a whole lot of narrative of, like, yeah. They instructed a narrative, you recognize, and so they answered WH questions. And so they have been capable of inform a narrative, in order that they have no issues talking English. And that is all the data I get. Like, it is actually exhausting for me to sort of perceive, okay. Effectively, what do I must work on or what are a few of these different points? So I like having goal measures within the evaluations as a result of it is one thing that we are able to all perceive and might all work from.
00:11:13 Hallie: That was so fascinating. I do not even suppose I noticed the SLAM playing cards had that. I just like the SLAM playing cards as a result of it had photos for youthful college students, however then older ones. Like, the cellphone one and issues like that have been simply, like, very age applicable. They did not really feel like I used to be displaying them cutesy photos. And there and I really like that and the Increase made it a lot simpler that I did not even need to print them or something.
00:11:33 Jacquilyn: Sure. I really like that. Love that. Sure.
00:11:38 Hallie: So these are those that I like to make use of. Might you share a bit bit extra about how neurolanguage sampling can be utilized throughout, like, the completely different languages and cultures?
00:11:47 Jacquilyn: Yeah. So, I imply, all completely different cultures, they’ve their very own types of storytelling. It is a very, like, practical job. You already know, a whole lot of instances when dad and mom come, they… you recognize, I say, oh, what’s one thing that you just actually want your little one might do? And a whole lot of them are telling me, I simply need my little one to have the ability to inform me about, like, what occurred that day. That is a story. A story is one thing that’s each – proper? That we need to use throughout completely different cultures.
00:12:10 Jacquilyn: A few of the issues that I actually like about among the sources that I simply talked about is that they’ve already been normed and translated, both developed in one other language or they have been translated into one other language and normed. So the MAIN is a type of. SLAM, they’ve a bunch of various translations as effectively. ENNI is developed in Canada, so it has English and French. Proper? However there… so much is out there. And, I imply, simply to shout out, SALT. SALT is not a free one. However even on the SALT web site, they will have, like, the completely different frog tales. So these are those that I believe all of us did in grad college. And it will have English and Spanish audio scripts. So even in case you do not use the… you do not converse that language, you possibly can sort of play that story, present them the photographs, after which have them repeat it.
00:12:57 Jacquilyn: So I do some consulting work at a clinic that primarily works with Portuguese talking households. And in order that one is basically – No. We use the MAIN. That one has been actually useful as a result of though I do not converse Portuguese, I can do the pattern in English and do a story in English. After which I can, you recognize, prepare both the SLPA that is working there. I’ve additionally labored with the psychologist that is there, and she is going to present the mannequin after which accumulate the pattern. And since there’s that very clear scoring measure, then we are able to speak it by means of collectively, and we are able to sort of evaluate. Okay. Effectively, let’s speak in regards to the grammar right here and get a few of that perception on a type of issues. So it helps me to have the ability to evaluate and see what is going on on. It is extra of only a lack of alternative versus an precise language dysfunction.
00:13:47 Jacquilyn: And the beauty of narrative samples too is if you’re working with youngsters which can be bilingual or talking different languages, as a result of you have already got a construction of the way you’re supposed to inform a narrative in your house language, you’re offering sort of a base for a kid and you’ll actually see, okay. Effectively, they’re able to sort of set up language, formulate issues. And if it is only a grammar difficulty, then you definitely’re sort of capable of extra rapidly pinpoint, effectively, that is simply… they’re nonetheless studying English versus they actually have not developed a base of learn how to talk but.
00:14:16 Hallie: So, so fascinating. Particularly, you recognize, these of you listening which can be new to working with college students talking a number of languages. It is actually necessary to tell apart if it is a distinction or a dysfunction. And having extra info, I imply, capable of analyze it and understanding the sentence constructions and the – such as you even mentioned, the story frameworks is completely different understanding that. So, so, so fascinating. What are some newish goal measures that you should utilize this to assist discriminate between developmental language or typical developmental language which can be quick and do not require, you recognize, SALT or particular software program?
00:14:55 Jacquilyn: Proper. As a result of often, once we take into consideration language sampling, we take into consideration, okay. We have now to calculate MLU or or imply size of utterance. And now we have sort of seen that that is not essentially one of the best instrument to make use of to sort of establish whether or not or not anyone has a language dysfunction or not. One that’s… I say newish as a result of it has been round for a short while, however I do not see it as usually is PGU, which is P.c Grammatical Utterances. So this, I believe, is basically quick as a result of what you are doing is you are simply seeing how grammatical is that this kid’s language.
00:15:25 Jacquilyn: So when you’ve got a story language pattern, so I would, you recognize, say it is thirty utterances. All I am doing is I am counting whether or not or not that one utterance on that one line is grammatical or not. So it is, you recognize, only one, two, three, 4, 5 out of, you recognize, 25 utterances and quite simple math. 5 divided by 25. Okay. You already know? So when you’ve gotten that PGU, the P.c Grammatical Utterances, this has been proven… a measure to be proven very delicate and really particular in diagnosing youngsters with language impairment versus not. Proper? So we wish one thing that has actually good sensitivity and specificity, and so they’re displaying that PGU for at the least, you recognize, the ages that I work with, like, from 4 to 9, has nice. So between eighty and ninety %, which is healthier than a whole lot of standardized exams.
00:16:14 Hallie: I really like this. I really like that you just’re sharing simply not solely the instrument, but additionally giving simply higher info. Like, the higher the report, the higher knowledge that you’ve, the higher medical judgment you may make, higher objectives you possibly can write. You need to write objectives which can be attainable. Can you employ this, or do you employ this in any respect along with your dynamic evaluation?
00:16:35 Jacquilyn: Yeah. I believe for positive. So, you recognize, we discuss dynamic evaluation once we’re working with our children, particularly our bilingual youngsters. And dynamic evaluation, you possibly can, you recognize, you are engaged on getting the data, offering a bit little bit of that instructing, after which doing it once more. So I believe you should utilize it for each. I’d most likely take a look at it on the one that you just do on the finish, or you possibly can even evaluate it if you’d like. They do not take – PGU doesn’t take lengthy to calculate in any respect. And utilizing that to sort of determine, effectively, okay. If there’s some grammatical points right here or if there’s little one is struggling right here, you are going to have a greater concept of sort of seeing, effectively, was it simply because they’d by no means, you recognize, been uncovered to that individual vocabulary phrase and so they simply wanted a mannequin of, like, learn how to conjugate it, or is it simply constant patterns occurring?
00:17:22 Hallie: That is so fascinating. Do you’ve gotten a favourite approach to introduce it to make the scholars really feel snug and they also know what is anticipated of them versus identical to, inform me what is going on on on this image? What do you prefer to… how do you prefer to introduce the exercise for that matter?
00:17:37 Jacquilyn: Yeah. I imply, effectively, if I am utilizing the precise bodily books, then, you recognize, that half, I believe, is a bit simpler. It is extra visible of, like, alright. However as I am pulling the kids for assessments, I allow them to know what we’ll be doing. You already know, we’ll do a check. So that’s going to be a guide that I flip. It has a whole lot of photos, and I’ll have you ever, like, title what’s occurring. And then you definitely’re additionally going to inform me a narrative. So I prep them as they arrive in, and that is – I imply, telling tales is one thing they have been practising of their school rooms.
00:18:08 Hallie: Do you love to do the narrative sampling earlier than or after the standardized check? Simply curious.
00:18:12 Jacquilyn: It will depend on the child. I sort of… I like to finish with it a whole lot of instances as a result of I do really feel like, it is often one thing that the kid enjoys. It is a bit bit extra enjoyable and enjoyable, particularly as a result of I’ll present the mannequin first or the story retells. So it offers them a bit little bit of a break the place they’ll simply, you recognize, have me telling them a narrative after which do it again.
00:18:33 Hallie: I do know for me, I like doing these conversational icebreaker issues at first, and it is an effective way to get a few of these language sampling and noting issues down. But when they don’t seem to be opening up in any respect, I prefer to then herald language sampling piece beforehand. This manner, they only loosen up a bit bit earlier than taking out that guide with pages of it.
00:18:54 Jacquilyn: Proper. Proper. [overlap – inaudible]
00:18:57 Hallie: Asking me my favourite colour was exhausting sufficient. Have you ever ever tried utilizing, like, wordless image books in the identical sort of format?
00:19:10 Jacquilyn: Yeah. I really like these on Epic. There is a couple I’ve a, like, a set of wordless image books that I actually like. The Discipline Journey sequence, the Discipline Journey to the Moon, Discipline Journey to Volcano Island, I actually like. These could be nice too. We’ll typically pull these into remedy as effectively.
00:19:27 Hallie: So cool. And that is why I really like utilizing wordless image books on the whole as a result of it simply elicits language and then you definitely simply get to work on actually something. Is there something now we have not mentioned right here at the moment that you just really feel like individuals ought to learn about language sampling, somebody who’s hesitant? How have you ever felt like your confidence in it elevated over time? Like, what would you say to somebody who’s, like, a bit uncertain?
00:19:50 Jacquilyn: I’d say to please strive it as a result of I do know including a complete one other job throughout evaluation can really feel actually overwhelming. However to strive it and… or in case you’re already doing it, please attempt to use a scoring measure with it as a result of I believe it is going that will help you body your evaluation writing a bit bit effectively. SLAM is, I believe, a terrific one as a result of they’re shorter. So I believe that is one to start out with. As a result of they’re sequence photos, you do not get a whole lot of utterances. Numerous instances, you solely get possibly 4 or 5 utterances. It is a nice place to begin of I am simply going to strive. The opposite one factor I need to spotlight too is a whole lot of – now now we have so many nice notice taking issues or transcribing factor… apps on our telephone or our computer systems. It is made transcribing a lot easier since you file and it will already make a transcript for you. It is not as arduous as individuals usually suppose. So simply strive one.
00:20:43 Hallie: And I do know a bunch of SLPs are dabbling with AI to assist them with the transcribing, like saying, you recognize, pull this, give me what number of this. And so if you’re techie and need to discover and go wild and loopy, it is a means that may actually prevent tons of time, but additionally assist you make assured choices, which is what it is all about.
00:21:05 Jacquilyn: Sure.
00:21:05 Hallie: Thanks so, a lot. The place can everybody be taught extra about you and all the pieces it’s a must to supply?
00:21:10 Jacquilyn: Yeah. So I believe Instagram might be the place we’re essentially the most lively, which is Habla Cadabra SLP. So H-A-B-L-A after which cadabra just like the magic phrases after which SLP. In order that’s the identical for our Instagram in addition to our web site. We have not too long ago began a weblog on our web site, so now we have a submit out about learn how to calculate PGU in addition to some free narrative sources. On our web site, we’ll additionally attempt to publish sources. It is extra geared in the direction of individuals which can be working with bilingual populations, however we even have info of simply nice issues to know.
00:21:43 Hallie: Thanks a lot. We’ll have hyperlinks to all the pieces within the present notes, so to not fear. Go to that Jacquilyn out on Instagram. Inform her to say hello. Inform her – ask her any questions that you just might need, and even simply say thanks for sharing her knowledge and expertise and experience with all of us right here at the moment. So I all the time finish my episodes with a joke as a result of jokes construct rapport and they’re enjoyable. So what occurs when ice cream will get offended?
00:22:08 Jacquilyn: Oh, I do not know.
00:22:12 Hallie: It has a meltdown. My corny dad jokes are right here, guys, each week in an effort to steal them and use them along with your college students, and you’ll blame me in the event that they discover it corny. Okay, guys? Alright? So till subsequent week, everybody. Keep out of hassle.
00:22:36 Hallie: Thanks a lot for tuning in to a different episode of SLP Espresso Speak. It means the world to me that you just’re tuning in each week and getting the jolt of inspiration you want. You will discover the entire hyperlinks and data talked about on this episode at my web site, speechtimefun.com. Do not forget to comply with the present so you do not miss any future episodes. And whilst you’re there, it might imply the world to me in case you would take a couple of seconds and go away me an sincere evaluation. See you subsequent week with one other episode stuffed with enjoyable and inspiration from one SLP to a different. Have enjoyable, guys.
00:23:17 Hallie: Hey there, SLP. I’ve a fast query for you. What in case you might have only one guide in your shelf that really will get the challenges of working with center college and highschool college students? Effectively, it is right here. Effectively, truly, the pre order is right here, however, hey, I am so excited to let you recognize that my model new guide, The Secondary SLP Information, is out there for preorder. And if you preorder, you get an unique bonus that you just will not need to miss.
00:23:48 Hallie: It’s full of actual speak methods, fast suggestions, and inspiration that you should utilize along with your center college and highschool college students or all 12 months lengthy. That is the proper guide for a guide membership, a grad pupil group, or simply flipping by means of if you’re caught and in a IEP writing spiral. So head to speechtimefun.com/preorder or head to my Instagram and ship me a DM with the phrase preorder, and I’ll ship you the hyperlink so you possibly can preorder now. And I can not wait so that you can get your fingers on this guide in November, however the sooner you seize it, the higher the bonus.
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